Picture of Pastors Jim and Marie Watt
Pastors Jim and Marie Watt

Two Are Better Than One

 FIVE ESSENTIAL GIFTS [5-FOLD OF EPHESIANS 4:11 (1-16)] - 2008-09-23


Pastor David Yonggi Cho of Seoul, S. Korea, gave unusual prophecies for Canada starting in 1975.

Certain prophets among the New England prophets in the time of 1776, also gave an unusual word for God's purposes for Canada in the end-times.

1. George R. Hawtin, soon after the February 1948 Visitation in North Battleford, Saskatchewan majoring on the restored “Presbytery” concept, began to teach on the 5-fold ministries of Ephesians 4:11, which really was the basis for the Presbytery.

2. The original purpose of the restored Presbytery according to God's original prophetic word was to: - Indicate the gifting and position of each member in the body of Christ, with anointing to function.

- It would find restoration through prophecy and the laying on of hands: 1 Timothy 1:18 (l:18-20; 4:14 (4:11-16); Deut. 34:9 (34:9-12) - for Joshua; Genesis 48 8-12 for Ephraim & Manasseh; Hebrews 6:1-3 (5:11-6-8) - the 4th of the 7 Foundation Truths.

- Milford Kirkpatrick was selected by the Lord on February 11th, 1948, to receive the first example of what God had in mind. Besides having an apostolic indication that indeed brought him to 20 nations later on, God indicated by the Spirit that he would have a confirming gift of laying on of hands for healing. Brother Hawtin immediately invited some 20 forward with physical needs, to have Brother Kirkpatrick minister to them. God unusually confirmed the gift so indicated.

- Mrs. Rasmussen, wife of a Canadian leader of those days, asked me in 1962, Do you remember in October 1948 in Edmonton giving a prophecy over me? I answered, No Ma'am. Well here is what the Lord gave you to say over me - Martha Martha, you have been busy over many things, but Mary has chosen the better part. However, I will now put into you the spirit of a Mary, and you will find that you too will be able to sit at My feet and learn of Me. Yet you shall retain the spirit of a Martha, and in balance you will serve Me in a way both pleasing to me, and satisfying to you. She then said, Do you know what nick-name my friends used to give me? Martha!

That was the type of ministry that took place back in 1948. Strong lives were taken apart, and put together again, but with a new heavenly touch and a new fruitfulness in line with their Risen Lord.

Another evangelist in those days with a fruitful ministry of 1000's present, presented himself for Presbytery ministry. Following that impartation, he went to South America, and had from 50,000 to 100,000 in his meetings, with extreme fruitfulness that went along with it.

In April of 1948 I attended a meeting in the Queen Elizabeth High School auditorium in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Ern Hawtin was speaking and giving a report on what God had started in February. Never had I heard prophecies like those that preceded his message in the worship time. And those giving them were students that I knew from 1945-1946 when I attended Bethel Bible Institute in Saskatoon. This school in 1947 moved up to North Battleford, and became the Sharon Schools. I thought, “Where have I been all of my life? What is God doing that has so transformed these former fellow students of mine? And besides that, at that time they were not specially spiritual in their attitudes.

Following Ern Hawtin's report and message, he told us that he felt permission from the Lord to minister prophetically over a few, and called me out first. There was up to 1000 present, and I was sitting on his right, in the second row, on the end seat. When he ministered over me first prophetically and then with the laying on of hands, he confirmed things that only I and the Lord knew. I had shared with none the things I was hearing. Then when he prayed over me with the laying on of hands, an anointing came upon me prophetically, that hasn't left me to this day.

3. The Nature of the 5-fold.

- Acts 13:3 (1-3) - revealed how certain prophets and teachers in the city church of Antioch met, and the Holy Spirit unexpectedly used them to commission 2 of their number for the first missionary trip, Barnabas and Saul. They returned from this first trip as apostles, with Paul now #1.

- Acts 15:1-35. At the request of the church of Antioch through their representatives, Paul and Barnabas, the apostles and elders of the church of Jerusalem met to consider the problem, of certain of their members confusing the work of the church of Antioch in their missionary endeavors. It was a Judaizing controversy, in which the Jerusalem members were saying that Gentiles could not be Christians till they were first converted to Judaism and were circumcised. Paul in Galatians carefully and logically showed the absolute wrongness of this attitude. James the half-brother of Jesus, was apostolic pastor of the church of Jerusalem, but not one of the 12. He summed up the meeting in Acts 15:13-29, and wonderfully confirmed the wishes of Paul and Barnabas and the city church of Antioch. Notice carefully the protocol between city churches in those days, and how serious problems were wisely solved.

- 1 Peter 5:1 (5:1-5) - Here Peter, though an apostle - even one of the original 12 - (though 12 additional ones are named in the New Testament) - yet here he rates himself as a fellow-elder with the other resident elders. This is a significant insight.

- Now see Ruth 4:1-6 (3:1-4-17) - What we see here taking place as an Eldership or Presbytery sitting in the gate of a city or large village, represents the place where allproblems are solved - and where they wait on God for Him, and His directions for the good of the city. Thisis what was taking place at Antioch (Acts 13:1-3) and Jerusalem (Acts 15) - as a carry-over from Old Testament times.

- The Sanhedrin was a gathering of 70 elders for the welfare of the nation of Israel, though over time it could become corrupt, as it did in the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

- The Eldership is a term synonymous with Presbytery (a word based on the word “elder”.)

- All of the 5-fold ministries of Ephesians 4:11 are elders.

- The 5-fold Eldership or Presbytery is notfor a local church alone - but for the City church, sitting in the Gate of the City.

- Their function was not just for the modern sense of Presbytery as indicated by prophecy and laying on of hands on February 11, 1948, but for all other functions of Eldership as indicated in Scripture, Old Testament as well as New. However, the restoration of the function of Presbytery or Eldership in 1948 islegitimate, and a very important function, which will be demonstrated Monday night. This function can be both corporate and individual. On Monday we will, following a teaching session conducted by both Pastor Kirk Duncan and myself - first move in the corporate dimension, and then as time permits, with individuals.

Now note: Ephesians 4:12- The 5-fold-ministries of 4:11 are“for the perfecting of the saints, unto a work of ministry, unto a building of the body of the Christ.” - and a specific function for Presbytery as it relates to coordinating the various members of Christ's spiritual body. The Greek word is ka-tarTIzo: perfecting, maturing, equipping. In a sense the 5 lumbar vertebrae of the human spinal column represent the strengthening effect of the 5-fold ministries! It takes all 5 - sitting in the gate of the city. They did this freelyfor all the local churches of that city. Each city church had its own unique Presbytery.

In the beginning, it was not necessary to have traveling Presbyteries. In Timothy's case the Eldership of 3 cities combined to set him apart as an aid to Paul in his apostolic missionary team, Acts 16:1(16:1-4) - Derbe, Lystra and Iconium. Allof the Eldership of these 3 cities all knew Timothy, and all about him, and all gave him a good report. Paul received confirmation that his choice of Timothy was good!

It was this way also at North Battleford in the restoration days of 1948 for this concept. It was only some 20 years or so later that a departure took place, and a traveling presbytery would come to one local church in a city, but would not be allowed to know anything about the candidates to whom they would minister. In the beginning it was not so. In the days of the '48 North Battleford visitation it was not so.

In 1992 I had a vision, in which God had George R. Hawtin appeared to Marie and myself, though he was then with the Lord. He said, “I am too old to lead in another visitation. You and Marie were with us in the beginning. You are aware of all the 12 Embryonic Revival Principles that came together by God in 1948. I pass the torch on to you. Take it, and bring to maturity the 12 Embryonic Revival Principles of that day. They shall be parameters of safety to safeguard the last day revival preceding the return of the Lord.

In a sense, the united working of the Presbytery and the 5-fold ministry is the very heart of that move. What Pastor Rathnam has asked me to do in the convention, is nothing more than the fulfillment of the mandate I received from God through Brother Hawtin in July, 1992.

Prior to the time of an Eldership or Presbytery in the Gate of each Israeli city as illustrated in the book of Ruth, the Levites performed the function of Presbytery in Teaching, counseling, guidance, leading in worship, solving disputes, solving problems, meting out judgment, etc.

That Presbytery was originally on a city basis, not a local church basis, and that the 5-fold ministry was on a city basis, not a local church basis - can be seen by the following analysis of the word “church, or assembly. It appears in the Greek NT 114x as Ek-kleSIa. Once, it refers to Israel as the church in the wilderness in Acts 7; 3x it refers to the secular assembly in the city of Ephesus, Acts 19:23-41; 14x it refers to a local church, which at that time was a church in the home, not larger than 50-100 members. 15x it refers to the universal church of both OT and NT saints world-wide. But - 81x - it refers to the City church, such as referred to 14x in Revelation 2 and 3, and which alone contains the complete 5-fold ministry.

The early apostles as representing the city church, possibly traveled 2 x 2 to the local churches in homes to perform the Presbytery function as we know it today since 1948. In Acts 2:46 (2:43-47) we see that the early believers met regularly at the Temple for teaching by the apostles, and also at home, the place of the smaller local churches. In Acts 5:42 (5:17-42) we see that the 12 apostles daily taught and preached in the Temple (but also at home in the local churches), empathizing that Jesus was the Messiah to come. Quite possibly they did the latter 2 x 2, just as Jesus previously sent them forth in Matthew 9:35 to 11:l. In Luke 10:1-24 the Scriptures mention that Jesus sent out the 12 two by two. We know that Peter and John were one of these 6 teams, and later Jesus sent out the 70, very likely in 35 teams. Peter and John were traveling and ministering together in Acts 3:1 through 4:4.

On the basis of the above, I believe it is reasonable to assume that the apostles following their Temple-teaching, traveled 2 x 2 from church in the home to church in the home. They would there minister not in a high Presbytery sense of Acts 13:1-3, but more in the Hebrews 6:1-2 sense, of helping individual believers know their place in the body of Christ, and receive a release of the appropriate gifts of the Spirit and ministries of Romans 12:6-8 to function in their respective roles.

Presbytery and Eldership as illustrated in Acts 13:1-3 would be reserved for the 5-fold ministry. This is not appropriate for believes not in the 5-fold category. Pastor Reg Layzell of Vancouver (one of the 1948 seven Summer Camp elders), and the Bealls of Detroit, both saw this distinction. Many local churches who have not practiced this distinction, have found that many of their non 5-fold members have been brought into a very frustrating position. They have received prophetic indications that they are in the 5-fold category, when the Lord has not called them into this position.

One such young man approached Bob Mumford and told him of a prophetic word over him, that he was an apostle. For 2 years he was seeking to realize this function, but to no avail. Mumford asked his wife, “Honey, do you believe your young husband is an apostle?” “No, Brother Mumford,” she tearfully replied.

Then Bob Mumford asked, “Son, if you knelt down and I prophesied off of you this apostolic calling, do you think that would help?” “O, Brother Mumford, could you do that?” “Just kneel down, son, and we'll see what the Lord will do!”

This is tragic that so many false prophecies have gone over God's people by those who have arrogated to themselves a 5-fold calling, which the Lord has not given them. Watch and guard against any that is not of the true 5-fold calling, who wishes to minister to you. There is such a thing as the transference of spirits! You can pick up something that will bring you great frustration and unease.

In one such Presbytery conference the Eldership ministered to a group, but were not allowed to know anything about the ones they were to minister to. This is tempting God, and not in the spirit in which Timothy was ministered to! The prophetic word to one such couple was that if they left their local church, they would not lose their salvation, but they would lose the blessedness of remaining in their church as pillars for raising the hands of their pastor as Aaron and Hur upheld the hands of Moses.

The pastor, following the Presbytery ministry to this couple said to the chairman, “I think we might have missed it here. We commissioned this couple last week as missionaries to Japan!” “Well,” was the response, “You can't hit it all of the time.”

But - this does not accord with Moses' warning in Deuteronomy 18:22 (18:15-22). And also see Deuteronomy 13:1-11. There are two many prophetic words and dreams going forth these days that do not conform with the warning of God through Moses. God is very clear in Deuteronomy 18:22 that every word spoken in the name of Jehovah must come to pass - and if not - we are not to fear the so-called prophet giving such words!

Serious? tremendously so! But some will say - but that is OT, and does not have jurisdiction over us! Really? The ceremonial law of the Pentateuch or Torah certainly does not have jurisdiction over NT saints - but the moral teaching is applicable to us today and even more so than for OT saints. See the words of Prophecy in the NT. I cannot find one prophetic word recorded in the NT that did not come to pass! I fear I cannot say the same about Presbytery practice today, nor many of the prophetic words given today, nor many of the dreams given today. I fear that the words, “Well, we can't hit it all of the time,” won't do too well when we appear before the BEma, the Judgment Seat of Christ, for saints at the time of the Resurrection, where we all must answer for the deeds done in our bodies.

Humanly speaking, I feel sorry that I am led of the Spirit to add the above words of caution. But in the light of Truth, God's Word, and the Judgment on those who are not serious about these words of God through Moses - such needs to be said. Judgment must begin at the house of God before God judges the world - for He would have Mature and Righteous saints stand with Him at that time for the Judgment on the world.

On Saturday 27th at 7:00 PM, Sunday morning the 28th at 10:30 AM and briefly Monday night at 7:00 PM,I will be teaching and preaching on portions of the above concerning the relationship between the5-fold Offices of Ephesians 4:11 and the Presbytery concept, as they came together in 1948 at North Battleford. As the last living elder of the 1948 Summer Camp Meeting, and as one commissioned by God through vision in 1992, I feel He wants this balance to be clearly set forth before the return of His Son.

On Sunday night at 7:00 PM I will share God's mandate to Marie and I in our “Two Are Better than One” Ministry; how it applies to all team couples, especially married couples, and how it relates to Prayer Multiplication, especially for 70 cities of Canada and 70 more in the USA. God would have this designated as “Spiritual Star Wars.” In Zechariah 12:8 in the last days, the feeble among us will be as David (10,000-fold - and a prayer couple - 100,000); but we of the house of David (like the 5-fold will be as God, as the Angel of Jehovah - one million fold; and a prayer couple, 10 million fold. 4 such couple will be as one billion-fold. 70- cities with such teams of 8 could take out principalities and powers over cities, areas and nations, as Daniel did in chapter 9 and 10.

Thiswill speed Jesus' return, and allow us to pray in sincerity, “Yes: I come quickly foretells Jesus. And our response, Amen: come, Lord Jesus” (Revelation 22:20).

The location of these meetings again:

New Hope Christian Centre

2825 Garden Park Tower

Clearbrook Road - Abbotsford, B.C.

Contact Phone # 604-852-8076 - #604-852-8164

David Rathnam, pastor.

And where to order the 1948 Ten Half-Hour segments arranged by the Rev. Dr. John Roddam of St. Luke's Episcopal Church of Seattle, and also the 4 services outlined above (both filmed by Stuart Spani of North Vancouver. - Available through:

Norlynn Audio Visual Services - Vancouver BC



Your friend - Jim Watt